TOWN MEETING HELD MARCH 11, 1999 AT INTERMEDIATE SCHOOL: The first in a series of town meetings to discuss the possible location of an electric co-generating plant in Forney was held on March 11 beginning at 6:30 p.m. in the Forney Intermediate School cafetorium. Sid Holcomb, representing the Forney Chamber Commerce, served as an unbiased facilitator. Mr. Holcomb introduced himself to the attendees stating that, as a real estate broker in the area, he found out about this issue early on. As a member of the Chamber, he suggested that these meetings should be held to give everyone an opportunity to ask questions and state their concerns. Because the cost of hiring a public speaker to facilitate the meetings was prohibitive, Mr. Holcomb was chosen to do so. These meetings are to be fair and impartial, to discuss the pros and cons of the issue, and give all who wish to a chance to express themselves. Questions and concerns will be summarized and published in the Forney Messenger and will be forwarded on to the involved power companies for their response. The March 11 meeting was held to get questions/concerns on the table. The power company representatives will be present at the next two meetings to answer the questions. The last and final meeting will be for the citizens of Forney discuss the answers given to them. Mr. Holcomb stated that this meeting also, in a broader scope, is about the planning of the community. The Chamber is much like the “cheerleader” of the community that goes out and solicits business and tells people what a nice town we have here. Judy Griffin, the Membership Chairman of the Chamber, was then introduced and stated that she had plenty of membership applications for anyone interested in joining the Chamber -- whether a business or a private membership. John Taylor, the Chairman of the Chamber, was introduced and stated that this is a Chamber-sponsored forum, but that doesn’t mean that the Chamber itself is in favor of the power plants. Some of the speakers tonight will speak on how an industry of this magnitudecan affect the economic base of Forney, as well as Kaufman County. Some of the speakers will give their opinion on how this could negatively affect Forney, and Kaufman County. He asked that everyone write their questions down and listen carefully to ensure no questions are repeated. Mr. Holcomb announced that six people will be speaking -- three for and three against the power plants. Donna Sprague, Kaufman County Tax Assessor/Collector, will first talk about the potential tax impact. She will then be followed by Judy Stout, Ray Raymond, Darrell Grooms, Ken Leonard, Andy Parker, and Jerry Flook. (Some background and credentials were given on each.) After the speakers, Mr. Holcomb asked that all who have questions stand up, state their name, and if they would like a personal response to their questions, give their telephone number so it can be made a part of the record. The questions and concerns will then be summarized in a clear, concise way. Pastor Jerry Griffin then gave the opening invocation. DONNA SPRAGUE then addressed the tax structure. In July every year, the Appraisal District certifies values to the governing bodies and to her. First, she calculates an effective tax rate based on values in each jurisdiction. Those rates are then published so the governing bodies can see how much money they need to generate, without going to a roll-back situation. Right now, the 1998 appraisal tax rate for Forney is 2.618 cents. That includes school, county, and city combined. If this proposed power plant would generate $300M of revenue, that same tax rate would go down to 1.426 cents. If it went to $400M, your aggregate tax rate would be 1.194 cents. That is remarkable. Looking at other jurisdictions around Forney: Terrell is 2.656 cents; Kaufman is 2.543 cents; and Crandall is 2.789 cents. Guess where any potential business would want to come? She further stated that, if you have a $50,000 homestead, based on the 2.618 cents tax rate, you pay $995 per year. If the power plant came in with $300M, your tax would drop to $550.20. If you have a $100,000 homestead, you currently pay $2,203. With the power plant worth $300M, you would pay _______. If you have a $200,000 homestead, you currently pay $4,843.48. With the power plant worth $300M, you would pay $2,648.50. With a power plant worth $450M, you would pay $2,223.50. Ms. Sprague further stated that the impact this would have in the taxation field would be quite significant. Tax rates are always an issue. People moving out of Dallas sometimes tell her they pay higher taxes in Forney than they have ever paid anywhere else. Attracting businesses causes your homestead taxes to go down. COMMENT: All that is based on the fact that the value of houses doesn’t go down when that industry comes in! QUESTION: Do we know that the tax rate would actually drop? Ms. Sprague stated that the tax rate has to be set at a certain level. If they go into a rollback, you have the authority to get an election and roll the tax rate back. So you do have a little leeway. If anyone exceeds that roll-back rate, the people can call an election, and roll it back, if that election is successful. COMMENT: Because of Robin Hood, the taxes would probably not change. Ms. Sprague said that is regarding State funding. That may have some impact. But she is only talking about local taxes. COMMENT: You (Ms. Sprague) told us what our taxes would be from year-to-year, but you didn’t tell us how much the value of our homes would drop. You based an example on $50,000 homes -- but our $50,000 homes won’t be worth that anymore, so those figures are not good! COMMENT: If we have some industries come in and lower our tax rate, Forney might be more attractive to people moving in. RESPONSE BY _?__: When industry moves in, they are mostly interested in (1) Do you have good schools; (2) Do you have suitable housing; and (3) What is the tax rate? QUESTION: You are talking about companies coming in being concerned about the schools. It is my understanding that this plant will only employ from 20-30 people. Why would that even be a concern? (Phil Wood then said he had done some research on this with Fannie Mae, etc., and read an excerpt from a book called “Appraising Single Family Residences” regarding some things which might affect property values, such as environmental concerns, being in a flight path, heavy industry, etc.) Darrell Grooms stated that the power plants are not asking for any abatements, and the City is not going to allow any. COMMENT: I don’t believe that the property values would go down way more than they already have from some of the industries already here. COMMENT: I happen to be a licensed real-estate agent. I would like to point out that the taxes in some areas of Dallas are much cheaper, but the schools are horrible! One reason I moved to Forney was because of the good schools. QUESTION: Terrell, with all of its industry, has a tax rate similar to Forney’s. How do you account for that? Ms. Sprague answered that every industry that has gone into Terrell for the last ten years has been tax abated. QUESTION: I don’t understand that interplay between the state funding. Will this really reduce our school taxes? Ms. Sprague said that it will on a local level. She is not sure how that would work on the state funding and suggested that Dr. St. Claire be asked that question. Mr. Holcomb reiterated that part of what we are doing is accumulating questions that need to be answered (at a later date). COMMENT: Regarding Dallas taxes. In the nicer parts of Dallas, their taxes are much more expensive, even though industry in those areas has not lowered the taxes. RAY RAYMOND: Gave some background info on himself. As a previous General Manager of Kaufman County Electric Co-Op for many years, Mr. Raymond’s experience is in the distribution side of the business. During this time, he had the opportunity to visit many power plants in the United States. He suggested that, if you really want to know about them -- go visit one. The best way to generate electricity is either solar or wind. But those things are down the road. So the next cleanest way is by natural gas. Concerns about that are about pollution, noise, stacks at the plant, etc. All of those things are controlled by the EPA and the TNRCC. In Forney, Mr. Raymond thinks we are in the Dallas contaminant area. If so, they follow much more stringent rules than some of the areas. QUESTION: How big a plant is being proposed and how many smoke stacks? Mr. Raymond answered that he understands it might be a 400 megawatt plant and he believes that would have two smoke stacks. QUESTION: How many plants could conceivably go into that area? COMMENT: I have heard that that area could handle four or five plants. Mr. Raymond responded that the audience should rely on someone else’s judgment about that. QUESTION: In all the plants you (Mr. Raymond) have been to, what is the closest proximity you have ever seen one to a residential area? Mr. Raymond said that he thinks he saw one in Oklahoma within four or five miles. COMMENT: Forney has homes within 1/4 mile of the proposed area. We are in a quandary as to why they would want to do this! QUESTION: If we find that this is not in the Dallas contaminant area, should be even more concerned? Mr. Holcomb stated that we should perhaps have the TNRCC come and address this issue. DARRELL GROOMS: Thanked the Chamber for hosting this event and stated that he is not speaking on behalf of the City Council. Since last summer, there have been four different companies that have approached us. Their needs would be: (1) An electrical substation; (2) A large gas pipeline; (3) Waste water disposal. No power plant has actually asked the TNRCC for a permit. No one has actually come to the city with a proposal. He then discussed the possible size of a plant. A 1500 megawatt plant would probably have six smoke stacks. A 500 megawatt plant would have two. Some other concerns to Mr. Grooms were: Taxes: Ms. Sprague can address county taxes. The superintendent can address school taxes. City taxes can be lowered. The city sets the budget to whatever we need. This past August, city taxes were lowered almost 4% for September 1998. Diesel fuel: The two main companies (Cobisa Corporation and Duke Energy) have both put this in writing to Mr. Grooms that, if they petition the city to come to Forney, they will not use diesel fuel. Noise: The facilities where the gas turbines will be will have a building built around them to control the noise. Mr. Grooms further stated that, if we have a $200M plant, it would probably employ up to 30 people. To equal that $200M plant, we would have to build 2,000 homes valued at $100,000 each. Imagine the traffic that 2,000 additional homes would create in Forney! Mr. Grooms then expressed concern that this issue is dividing the citizens of Forney, and that it should not come between them. Mr. Grooms stated that he has asked the two main companies, if they came to Forney, would they deed the property so their facility could be the only facility built on that property, and they both told him yes. Mr. Grooms then explained that Forney’s general fund budget is $1.2M. The only way the city can get money is by bonds, industry or commercial growth, or raising taxes. We need a new fire truck. We have to buy right-of-way from the FM740 bypass; the city is responsible for purchasing that. Pinson Road needs to be widened. KEN LEONARD: Understands that there is a petition with 700 signatures against the power plant. Wants all to understand that the whole story has not been told yet. He is here representing the County, which has taken no position on the issue. Mr. Leonard assured everyone that pollution is no problem from the power plants. This would be one of the cleanest power plants that has ever been built in history. The plant on Ray Hubbard now is an old one. If the effect of a new plant coming to Forney would be for that old one to close down, the environment would actually improve. No one wants to raise taxes. But we really need to find a way to improve roads in the county; our jails are overcrowded; we desperately need more courthouse space; and our sub-courthouse in Forney is far too small. Building better roads, sidewalks, parks, etc., will make property values go up...not down. JERRY FLOOK: Spoke in opposition to the power plants. Forney is facing a multitude of problems that will ultimately decide the fate of this town. No one is sure of the solutions, but we are sure they will not come from allowing power generation plants to locate within or close to our city, even though the economic benefits may be tempting the people who lead our city. The problems the plants would bring our city such as air/noise/visual pollution; deterioration of the town image; shifting the trend of upgrading development to low quality, high-density; and deterioration of our general economic makeup. Mr. Flook then showed a map displaying the area where the power plants want to locate, and the general proximity to the TU subplant, Buffalo Creek, East Fork, Knox, etc. Even though these companies have not come forward to apply for zoning, they have been in conversations with the City. Cobisa is the largest company and it would probably propose a 1500 megawatt plant with six stacks. It would be the largest plant in the state of Texas. Duke gave us a printout at the last Council meeting. They are talking in terms of a 500 megawatt plant (2 stacks). So there is a considerable difference in the size of the two companies who seem to be the main contenders at this point. Mr. Flook said a rep from Trinity(?) Electric said that the smokestacks for these plants are, on the average, 30 feet higher than the main building itself. Most of the height is not the smoke stack -- it is the building that sits under the smoke stack. Someone from the EPA told Mr. Flook that this area could have two or three power plants and still meet the standards of the TNRCC. JUDY STOUT: Ms. Stout emphasized that she was here as a citizen of Forney, and not as an expert. She serves on the Planning & Zoning Committee. The information she presented has been gathered over the last eight months, and she stated that it scares her personally. The TNRCC is a regulator for air pollution. Most of its job is to issue air quality permits, which are, in effect, licenses to pollute. They really have no concern regarding other issues, such as noise pollution, proximity to residences, etc. Dallas is a “non-attainment” county which means that it has not attained its air pollution goals yet. Kaufman County has attained its air pollution goals. She then reviewed two TNRCC forms: An actual Air Quality Permit; and the last page of the approval package entitled “Emission Sources, Maximum Allowable Emission Rates.” >From these reports, she reviewed the actual pounds per hour and tons per year of certain emissions (such as nitrous oxide; carbon monoxide; and sulfur dioxide) at a 330 megawatt plant with three stacks. Ms. Stout said that “while the TNRCC says they will not allow more pollution than is safe for us -- how much more do we need?” QUESTION: Does the direction of the wind have anything to do with it? Ms. Stout responded that if you are living within 1-1/2 miles, you are going to get the contamination, with children, the elderly, and the sick being most effected. Mulberry Park is 1.2 mile from the proposed area. Jackrabbit Stadium is 1.5 miles. Child care centers are closer than that. ANDY PARKER: Most of you have the perception that property values are going to go down if the power plant comes to Forney. Talk to the Yandell’s about what is happening in their development since the publicity has come to the surface about this issue. It is not good. This will have an impact on who is willing to move to Forney. Those people who could make a difference are just going to keep on driving. Given the growth that we have right now, I think it is reasonable to assume that, if nothing happens to upset the applecart, property values may appreciate 5-10% over the next few years. We are talking about lost appreciation if the plant moves in. If you have a $100,000 property, instead of it appreciating 5%, let’s say it declines in value 10%. Taking the tax numbers we have been given tonight, if there is a $300M investment in the plant and you save $1,000 per year on that property, how many years does it take for you to get even? Ten years. For each of us to get, say, that $1000 tax break, we are going to cause property owners on the Bluff and in the new additions across Highway 80 to suffer substantial decreases in property values. Maybe 30-50%? Are we so concerned about saving a few tax dollars that we don’t care about what happens to our friends and neighbors? The bottom line is: Is the city going to have any credibility with its citizens? Can we trust those in leadership? When property is zoned residential, there is at least the implication that the city is not going to let detrimental industry build close to it. Can we really say that, when push comes to shove, there will not be tax abatement? Some of the people whose property values would be affected by this are economically well off; but if this is going to be the way we make decisions -- what happens next time? When we start dividing people into groups we cease to be a community...we are just a collection of people living within a divided geographical area. My point is that we should not make decisions based on head count. If it is not good for every segment of Forney, it is not good for Forney. The public forum was then opened by Sid Holcomb, who asked that everyone keep their questions to one minute. QUESTION: What makes you think that anyone with the money to develop a residential area in Forney would want to do so...next to a power plant? My husband and I recently bought some land in this area and we are now considering selling it and moving down the road. Will this make our community grow...or dwindle? Why would developers come to a community with the stigma of a power plant? COMMENT: Talk about living at the edge of town...my home is within 200-300 yards of the proposed area. COMMENT: I am a Dallasite who moved to Forney. I wanted my two children to be raised here in this small town...a piece of Americana. People who are moving here are affluent enough to build nice homes; property values are going up. I spend extra money on gasoline; metro line; longer child care, etc., just so I can live here. I don’t care if I have to pay an extra $1,000 more a year for property taxes. Think about the kind of people who will move here if you keep building industry -- you will be looking at lots of apartments and lots of free school breakfasts. QUESTION: Regarding the 4% tax rebate that the City gave us -- what was that based on? Why did we get it? Darrell Grooms answered by saying (I THINK!) that last year the tax collector collected almost 100% of our taxes. QUESTION (to Ken Leonard): Why would you want to sacrifice this community to pick up the tab for the whole county? Mr. Leonard responded that, if we are going to talk about the community as a whole, we have to talk about the county as a whole. COMMENT: Everyone has talked about how bringing industry into Forney is going to decrease the property values. When I moved to Forney, the paper factory was already here at that time, and my property values have gone up. COMMENT: A suggestion was made that the facility be relocated to a place farther away. QUESTION: Has the TNRCC ever shut down a power plant? Judy Stout discussed that issue. The TNRCC told us that in six years they have never turned down a permit. They are not actually set up to turn down applications. It was again suggested that the TNRCC be invited to field these questions. QUESTION: Regarding co-generation of steam. These companies said they won’t sell any of their land. Do you know the distance that the steam can be issued for sale? QUESTION: Regarding city charters. Would this be in violation of any written city charter or zoning charter? It was responded that the real estate the power companies are looking at now is not in the city limits. QUESTION: Regarding byproducts on site. Would they have to be transported through Forney and what corridor would they take in terms of getting the hazardous waste off-site? QUESTION: If the City doesn’t own the property...let’s just assume that the City Council doesn’t want the power plant...can you stop them? Darrell Grooms then said there are some legal issues regarding Extra Territorial Jurisdiction, between the City of Forney and where it ends on the West side. Mesquite could annex the property in their ETJ; Sunnyvale could also; so could Dallas. It can go in a different city, and still be in Kaufman County. The county and the school could get the tax money, but not the city. Cobisa has told us that they would request to be annexed in order to get their financing. They also said “if you don’t want us, we won’t be there.” QUESTION: What would stop them from going to, for example, Mesquite’s ETJ? Darrell Grooms then said that gets into some legal issues, because these ETJ’s do cross county lines. QUESTION: Have the power plants made application to any of these other cities? QUESTION: If we don’t have clear right to annex anything outside our city limits because it is in a disputed ETJ, how can we be talking about this tax benefit that is going to come to us? If we have to beg Dallas, Seagoville, or whoever for the rights...? QUESTION: For those of you who are opposed to the power plant, we need to talk our city leaders into annexing everything that is within this disputed ETJ. Until our city annexes that land that we don’t have any zoning control over, theoretically, they could come and build out there without Forney’s approval. We need to stop this now. QUESTION: Who owns the land in question. If the people refuse to sell, how can the plant come here? Answer: They already have land under option around those owners. QUESTION: Has the City Council made any statement as to their place on this issue? QUESTION: How about something specific on the demographics? We really don’t know if this is going to bring our property values down or not. QUESTION: I heard tonight that one of the proposals was a 1500 megawatt plant. I think this large a plant should bring in $1B to $1-1/2B. It was answered that a 1500mw plant is $500M. COMMENT: The Dallas Morning News said recently that Plano will be fully developed by the year 2002. People considering Forney will see that monstrosity and keep on driving. COMMENT: Let’s not do false advertising. Our Forney brochure reads “where Dallas ends and living begins.” With this plant, it would need to say “where Dallas ends and industry begins.” QUESTION: If the plant comes to Forney...with deregulation and the rates set for five years...is there any chance that the citizens of Forney are going to benefit from it after five years? It was responded that that is part of the deregulation debate. We cannot address that. QUESTION: Has the TNRCC ever permitted anyone to burn hazardous fuels? It was responded that, if you are not permitted for anything but natural gas, you can be re-permitted to use secondary fuels at a later date. The company would have to go back and make som e expensive modifications, and then be re-permitted. Sid Holcomb then introduced Andy ________, a resident of Coppell who lives about 1/2 mile from a power plant. Mr. ____ stated that he lives in a neighborhood with houses valued at about $100/square foot. His house has appreciated in value at least 20%. He has never heard anyone complain about pollution, etc., and invites anyone who would like to drive by the plant. An audience member then commented that the plant Mr. _____ lived close to was not a welcome to his city, as the proposed plant would be to the city of Forney. QUESTION: It was stated there are four property owners. How do you know there are not, say, 10 owners? Sid Holcomb responded that you can obtain a property map from the Kaufman County Central Appraisal District. Keith Bell told the audience where his property is in relation to the proposed site. QUESTION: Can we find out who the other three land owners are? Sid Holcomb answered: John Adams; Robert Allan Sheppard; the Morris Estate. QUESTION: Regarding waste water to cool the plant. Does this present a problem with Forney’s water supply? What would they do with the waste water? Who gets priority on our water supply? QUESTION: Regarding the deed to the property. Can we place a restriction that no alternative fuel would ever be used? QUESTION: Regarding litigation. Are we aware of any regarding medical problems? QUESTION: Regarding medical problems, etc. Where would any liability fall? On the city -- or on the power company? The meeting was closed at 9:20 p.m.